Nemesis

To memory or not to memory that is the question

20 posts in this topic

I have stated in my intro that I don't have any past life memories to look back on and give me self evidence of my inner being and I wondered if all of you have these memories or if some of you are like me.

And either way how does having or not having them make you feel about your self, your journey and your place as an otherkin?

I have joined a lot of forums, mostly as a lurker, and seen so many people attacked because, like me, the only thing they can say when asked 'what makes you believe you are (insert kintype here)?' all they've been able to say is 'I feel a connection to this animal and sometimes exhibit the traits of the creature I believe I am'. They're called fluff, they're told they must search for more proof and present it as soon as possible, some have even been banned for trolling.

But still I can't make up memories I don't have, well I suppose I could but why should I?

This push for memories makes things very hard for people like me and I wondered, before I post anything about myself, how you all felt.

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I don't have any either. Sometimes when I've meditated I've thought maybe, but no.

It makes no difference to how I feel about myself or my journey and I'm not looking for a place among the otherkin, just people to talk to who might have a chance of understand any of what I'm talking about.

I've seen that happen too, I think it would be hard to find anyone on an otherkin forum who hasn't seen it, it happens on so many. I kept looking for a forum where that didn't happen and found this one. I don't post much here, but it's the only place I do post.

There's no reason for anyone to feel they have to make things up, and there's no-one out there with the right to make anyone feel like that either. If people want to call me fluff for any reason there's nothing I can do about it, I make my fingers into the 'whatever' sign and move on.

If the people you're hanging around with push you for memories then you're hanging around with the wrong people.

Welcome to the only free thinking otherkin forum on the net.

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Nicely put Adapt, and thankyou for making the castle the only place you post, I consider it an honour, as I do with the others who only post here.

I have various memories set in place to help me find what I do but I don't think anyone needs them to be the entity that they obviously are right now.

Thats like someone saying that I am not an adult because I don't remember being a child. It doesnt make sense.

Zygo :flame:

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I haven't any memories to share either, so we're definitely in the same boat there, but I don't know what I am yet I just have this deep down feeling that I'm other.

It's not really about what I feel it's about what I don't feel.

People talk to me, especially my family, they tell me how things are with them and I don't understand any of it. They tell me what it's like to be them and live their lives and it's like hearing someone reading a story about some far off galaxy that has no relation to the things I feel and think and the knowing I have inside about myself.

I watch people, constantly, I'm stalking the whole human race in an effort to understand them, but I can't.

I watch what they eat, the way they dress, the way the act and especially the way they treat each other and I feel absolutely no connection to any of it.

Because of all this I believe that although I might never get any memories that tell me what I was, or even if I was, and I might never know what I am, I already know what I'm not.

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I think this image might explain a little of what you and certainly I have felt Lys

aWZm2yK_700b.jpg

Zygo :flame:

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Knowing what you are not is a Huge step Lys, it could be that you haven't heard of anything that provides a connection for you yet, that may be because there is either no reference to it left here on earth or there never was.

I know for me it just started as me feeling a connection to Dragons, with no memories to speak of, it took a long time before i was able to find any memories. but memories are not the be all end all.

and i completely agree with your point and Zygo your pic is amazing!!!!

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For me it started as a connection, then memories, then considering myself as an angel. And that's the problem most people have with non-rememberingKin. Few don't have memories and still consider themselves kin, and almost always they remain confused and uncertain until they have memories.

It's the job of forum members to make other members feel accepted and at home with who they really are, so they ask for how you have proven your kintype to yourself. If you can't present that beyond a feeling that words fail to describe, it makes it hard for other members to do their jobs. People tend to get rather irritated when they can't preform their job, and those that don't notice how this irritation sets in tend to go overboard and lead an onslaught of degrading the person in question.

So I hope I brought some light on to this subject for all of you.

Back to you Nemesis, I believe you should try for memories because remembering wont hurt you, but being misled by yourself would. But memories take time, and know that what ever path you find yourself on we here at this fine castle will support you with everything, because we are damn good at our job.

This post has been edited to remove certain portions.

Please do not post details of another's personal and private life on this forum. It is unacceptable.

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For me it started as a connection, then memories, then considering myself as an angel. And that's the problem most people have with non-rememberingKin. Few don't have memories and still consider themselves kin, and almost always they remain confused and uncertain until they have memories.

It's the job of forum members to make other members feel accepted and at home with who they really are, so they ask for how you have proven your kintype to yourself. If you can't present that beyond a feeling that words fail to describe, it makes it hard for other members to do their jobs. People tend to get rather irritated when they can't preform their job, and those that don't notice how this irritation sets in tend to go overboard and lead an onslaught of degrading the person in question.

So I hope I brought some light on to this subject for all of you.

Back to you Nemesis, I believe you should try for memories because remembering wont hurt you, but being misled by yourself would. But memories take time, and know that what ever path you find yourself on we here at this fine castle will support you with everything, because we are damn good at our job. :smile:

The thing is, there is so such as proof of being otherkin.

There is no proof that past life experiences are phenomena that exist beyond your own mind, even having a 'shared' memory is essentially the exact same thing - the places, situations, people etc. only surely exist in your mind in some capacity, whether they were lived or real, is anyone's guess.

A past life is merely a belief, and having a past life story is just as much 'proof' as having none at all because all there really is is how much belief and value you put into it. I have friends who feel they have 'memories' but they don't feel that it needs to define them, so they don't. They barely talk about them, unlike a lot of people I've seen who do 'have' them around these spaces.

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Memories or no, it's all the same, if you feel you are, and you feel a certain connection to something, then you are. Memories can be helpful, sure, but the search for memory can have many a pitfall as well.

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The thing is, there is so such as proof of being otherkin.

There is no proof that past life experiences are phenomena that exist beyond your own mind, even having a 'shared' memory is essentially the exact same thing - the places, situations, people etc. only surely exist in your mind in some capacity, whether they were lived or real, is anyone's guess.

A past life is merely a belief, and having a past life story is just as much 'proof' as having none at all because all there really is is how much belief and value you put into it. I have friends who feel they have 'memories' but they don't feel that it needs to define them, so they don't. They barely talk about them, unlike a lot of people I've seen who do 'have' them around these spaces.

I believe I have past life memories because there is the shared experience part and I have known things through them and found out they are true.

And there is proof, there is always proof. You've proven to yourself that you exist right? That's all the proof you need. Even if you don't have proof that I am who I say I am, I have found proof to myself that I am what I say.

Maybe instead of the word "proof" we could use "justification". You and I are quite different, and our justifications for believing we are as we say are reflect that.

As for your friends that don't define themselves by their memories, how does someone learn without relying on memory?

On the whole nothing is provable part, I believe that because others have the power to change me they must exist. The alternative would mean I would be an infinitely self fed system where nothing new would happen.

If I exist and something makes me react then it must be real.

I felt like you were a little offensive in your last comment, I want you to know I'm just trying to present another side, not start any issues.

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I would really like to thank everyone here for leaving their replies to my question. I've enjoyed reading them all.

SirAzrilyan, I feel especially that I need to reply to you directly because I disagree with an awful lot of what you wrote, but I understand you have the right to leave your thoughts and I am grateful that you spent the time to post a reply.

I am very happy for you that you have found the proof you say you needed to justify your existence, I simply don't have that need.

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I believe I have past life memories because there is the shared experience part and I have known things through them and found out they are true.

How can you find out they are true? Even if someone has said they have shared a memory with you, the nature of the mind is fluid, especially under influence and especially without discipline and oversight. What one person said, might lead onto another thing from someone else, etc.

You can never be truly objective in the mental realm.

All you can know with a shared memory *definitively*, is that you and someone else supposedly experienced very similar things within each other's minds, there is no actual tangible evidence that it has any real connection in a reality. There is also miscommunication in language, because no matter how well you describe something, you will never get to the complete detail of something - language does not go that far, not even art, multimedia or interactive art can completely capture something in it's entirety.

It's fine to feel like you may have shared memories, but once again, it offers no empirical evidence for factuality or existing beyond your own mind and internal experiences, or anyone else's.

And there is proof, there is always proof. You've proven to yourself that you exist right? That's all the proof you need. Even if you don't have proof that I am who I say I am, I have found proof to myself that I am what I say.

Maybe instead of the word "proof" we could use "justification". You and I are quite different, and our justifications for believing we are as we say are reflect that.

That doesn't follow to past life memories - all I know to myself is that my mind exists, as far as quantum physics is concerned, everything else might as well be mush. What you have suggested in your previous post is that it is not a personal proof, but a universal proof.

You should have used that all along, 'proof' is very different to 'justification'. Even then, I don't see why anyone *needs* justification other than whatever they feel like - I know I live, I exist, etc. and I feel these ways and I feel comfortable in saying that I feel them enough to consider myself otherkin. That's it.

As for your friends that don't define themselves by their memories, how does someone learn without relying on memory?

Could you elaborate? I don't quite follow.

On the whole nothing is provable part, I believe that because others have the power to change me they must exist. The alternative would mean I would be an infinitely self fed system where nothing new would happen.

If I exist and something makes me react then it must be real.

Just because it changes you, it doesn't make it real - people can jump from a jump scare in a horror movie, that does not make the movie actually tangibly real within this reality. Art and entertainment can have very profound effects, they can inspire people, cause people to think in new and different ways, but just because the effects they have are real to you, it does not make the things that triggered them as having any quantifiable existence in this reality, they are constructed realities (and we cannot prove that other realities exist, so you cannot say that it could come from another reality because it's all completely theoretical and once again, not tangible or empirical).

There has been arts and entertainment of all kinds (fine art, theater, literature, video games, the list goes on) for centuries. People (unless they are actually true stories, or an observer/reader/audience member/player is acting in a deluded or irrational manner) don't go on to believe they exist within this shared reality, despite how real the effects and influences those things might be on them.

I've had some very profound experiences in video games, particularly MMOs. Games are an inherently kinaesthetic medium - you experience something and make your own decisions and ideas on the world, and I've had some very personally profound experiences in some of these games, and they live with me, and have real effects because they have influenced my life, and many of these have been shared by real people over an internet connection, but the world of the video game is not real.

Just because you can get new feelings and ideas from things, that does not make those things real except for having a real impact on your own mind and internal experiences.

I felt like you were a little offensive in your last comment, I want you to know I'm just trying to present another side, not start any issues.

You haven't presented another side, you presented your belief as fact - either without thinking or through the misuse of words, that is what your words have come out as. I've seen people say the same thing many times before and this kind of thing, miscommunication or not, this has an effect on people. Going from something being supposedly inherently factual to non-factual is a massive leap.

I've seen a lot of people around in otherkin spaces, feeling like they need to tell people that they should get themselves 'proof' from past lives in a really assuming way, and one that I consider to generally be intellectually insulting and akin to preachers of a religion - it's not professing empirical knowledge, it's professing beliefs. It's also incredibly ignorant of the broad history and diversity of otherkin.

It's fine to be taking about your own beliefs and personal experiences, but you and many other people before you have said things that fail to admit or understand those as being such things, and that can easily lead people to think that past lives are *the way*, when it is just not true.

Apologies if I'm sounding blunt, but this is generally why.

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... *sigh* ...

Paired with some personal issues I felt like I was attacked on this Thread. when I went back to site myself I found that an entire paragraph had been deleted for a reason I don't quite understand. I left the person unnamed (even ungendered) and told their story which some others have, and also you can still find their post about it if you know where to look. (also Im sure they actually gave permission to tell their story). In that paragraph I talked about another reason some have reservations about non-rememberingKin. I was making those points because sometimes knowing why you think some way is enough to change and be more accepting.

So, lets get started.

How can you find out they are true? Even if someone has said they have shared a memory with you, the nature of the mind is fluid, especially under influence and especially without discipline and oversight. What one person said, might lead onto another thing from someone else, etc.

By a sort of "Fill in the blank" deal. One says part of the memory and the other says what happens next, and so on.

You should have used that all along, 'proof' is very different to 'justification'. Even then, I don't see why anyone *needs* justification other than whatever they feel like - I know I live, I exist, etc. and I feel these ways and I feel comfortable in saying that I feel them enough to consider myself otherkin. That's it.

This is again from the deleted potion of my first post. people want it because they feel insecure about backing someone who is possibly misled by themselves, I've seen it lead to years of thinking your otherkin and later finding out your not. that's a lot of pain to deal with for all involved, and no one wants that.

Just because it changes you, it doesn't make it real - people can jump from a jump scare in a horror movie, that does not make the movie actually tangibly real within this reality. Art and entertainment can have very profound effects, they can inspire people, cause people to think in new and different ways, but just because the effects they have are real to you, it does not make the things that triggered them as having any quantifiable existence in this reality, they are constructed realities (and we cannot prove that other realities exist, so you cannot say that it could come from another reality because it's all completely theoretical and once again, not tangible or empirical).

There has been arts and entertainment of all kinds (fine art, theater, literature, video games, the list goes on) for centuries. People (unless they are actually true stories, or an observer/reader/audience member/player is acting in a deluded or irrational manner) don't go on to believe they exist within this shared reality, despite how real the effects and influences those things might be on them.

I've had some very profound experiences in video games, particularly MMOs. Games are an inherently kinaesthetic medium - you experience something and make your own decisions and ideas on the world, and I've had some very personally profound experiences in some of these games, and they live with me, and have real effects because they have influenced my life, and many of these have been shared by real people over an internet connection, but the world of the video game is not real.

Just because you can get new feelings and ideas from things, that does not make those things real except for having a real impact on your own mind and internal experiences.

My theory states that there has to be a driving force behind change. change doesn't just happen, something causes it to happen. I don't understand how your video game isn't real. You literally live within it, perhaps not as well as you do here though. only real things can cause real changes, nonreal things couldn't possible have the force to drive real change.

You haven't presented another side, you presented your belief as fact - either without thinking or through the misuse of words, that is what your words have come out as. I've seen people say the same thing many times before and this kind of thing, miscommunication or not, this has an effect on people. Going from something being supposedly inherently factual to non-factual is a massive leap.

I've seen a lot of people around in otherkin spaces, feeling like they need to tell people that they should get themselves 'proof' from past lives in a really assuming way, and one that I consider to generally be intellectually insulting and akin to preachers of a religion - it's not professing empirical knowledge, it's professing beliefs. It's also incredibly ignorant of the broad history and diversity of otherkin.

It's fine to be taking about your own beliefs and personal experiences, but you and many other people before you have said things that fail to admit or understand those as being such things, and that can easily lead people to think that past lives are *the way*, when it is just not true.

Apologies if I'm sounding blunt, but this is generally why.

I really wish this misunderstanding hadn't happened. Past lives are MY way, and can be anyone elses if they want. To me they are live learning from yesterdays mistakes is all. But I did present a side (well it's half a side now), I showed why many are have caution when dealing with non-rememberingKin.

I would really like to thank everyone here for leaving their replies to my question. I've enjoyed reading them all.

SirAzrilyan, I feel especially that I need to reply to you directly because I disagree with an awful lot of what you wrote, but I understand you have the right to leave your thoughts and I am grateful that you spent the time to post a reply.

I am very happy for you that you have found the proof you say you needed to justify your existence, I simply don't have that need.

I know I have that need, and I know not everyone does. In truth I may be a little envious of your situation.

***Note to the Admins***

I understand you were just enforcing the rules, and I know that is quite necessary, but I was genuinely hurt by thing things that transpired from it. Enough that I had writen "I've made this my home and I would rather leave it then soil it by arguing with harsh words." and I was prepared to leave, I want to keep this a good place after all. So is it possible to send out an automated notification or a pm when something is changed? in this case I would have rather had my entire post deleted then went through that, but its too late now.

P.S. I would have sent that note in a pm but I didn't know which Admin made the change.

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Guys this is all just a matter of opinion, and each person here is entitled to that opinion. what we do here is discus each other opinions. I am not having a go at anyone as i have only skimmed through what has transpired as i do not have time at the moment to sit and read it all as i am at work. I think everyone should take a step back re-read it all including there own posts, if you find you cannot accept that you both obviously have different opinions on this subject then please drop it and move to another subject. if it doesn't calm down i will ask for this thread to be closed.

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I am calm. Was hurt before realizing the rather large and out of hand misunderstanding. I never wanted this to happen and I'm sure no one else did.

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The portion removed did not unduly effect your post as a whole.

You claim you left them un-named and un-gendered but unfortunately they were plainly identifiable by your naming the forum they owned.

As Admins we made the decision that a third party discussing the private life and personal problems of someone else, made clearly identifiable by the details included, was unacceptable.

If you had put "Someone I know" or "A friend of mine" that have been acceptable, but you didn't.

Therefore your post was edited to remove details that should never have been included.

Speculation in this way is unacceptable here.

Member approval for the actions of the Administration is not required.

If anyone has any problems with the way this forum is administrated please contact either of us by PM. Which administrator carried out the deed is irrelevant as we work as a team.

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As the owner of the forum these are my rules the Admins are carrying out. (See Important Forum Information in the forum Rules)

First I want to look at this:

I left the person unnamed (even ungendered) and told their story which some others have, and also you can still find their post about it if you know where to look. (also Im sure they actually gave permission to tell their story).

You say that some others have told their story also, and that may be true, but it didn't happen here on my forum. The person involved may or may not have given permission for others to tell their story, I don't know, but if this kind of thing is to be discussed here then a link must be left so that anyone who is interested can read the person's actual story in their own words. If there is no link to the original story then it's gossip and speculation and I don't want that here.

Second comes this: Since we started the castle I've been told by so many members here that if this forum ran the way many others do most of you would not be here. You came looking for a haven, and that's what we've tried to give you. A place where you won't be judged or told there is a better/more acceptable way than yours.

Our admins work tirelessly (without payment) to ensure that this forum continues to be a place where all can state their beliefs and tell their own story without being attacked or demeaned for them. They protect the forum and the ideas that make it what it is.

All of the members here have their own story and their own way of doing things, all are equally as valid and equally as important to the life of this forum.

Debate is vital in a forum like this, and we encourage that, but, it's not permitted for anyone to state their beliefs as a fact or the truth, they can state that they are fact to them and that they are the truth for them, but not just that they are fact/truth and it's not permitted for anyone but the administration to tell anyone else how they must behave here.

Azrilyan said that it is our job to make members feel supported and accepted, but I would like to state right here for all to see that it's not my job to make people feel supported and accepted on this forum, it's my pleasure, and I am honoured to have the company of such wonderful people to join together and make this forum what it is.

A place where people can come and say 'this is the way it is for me', and be accepted.

I think that in his last post SirAzrilyan has explained himself and his beliefs very well, and that we may have reached a point where all parties to this can step back and breathe. We have a difference of opinion here, that's obvious, but that's all it is, and it's up to all of us to make sure that this experience helps us all come to a greater understanding of each other. Then it will be a positive thing not a negative one.

Let's learn from this and come out better friends because of it.

Lastly I really want to say a huge thank you to Mog. Your last post is amazing, and I am so very glad that the castle has people like you in it. I couldn't ask for a better friend.

Right I'm done. You can all go back to your lives now. lol

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And I would second both Mog and Velvet on their posts. We all have different beliefs and opinions, we all walk different paths. Those things are what make us who we are. Memories? No memories? Really it doesn't matter, and it shouldn't. If you are happy with yourself and your knowledge of yourself, that is what truly matters. So what if one day you wake up and realize that you aren't kin, and never were? Life is about evolution and self-learning, defining who you are as an individual and learning what does and does not work for you. The truly wonderful thing about the Castle is that you are free to come here as you are, with your own personal way and truth, and share it with others who are different (and some who are the same), and not be judged or ostracized or attacked or banned for it. Yes, if your behaviour is unacceptable there are consequences, but it is an effort to maintain this place as a safe haven (as Velvet put it). Nothing is undeniable universal fact or truth when being kin; everything is undeniable personal fact or truth.

I suppose I will try to make an example of myself. Sure, I have a scant few of what I believe may be memories of past lives, and I have searched endlessly for memories of being whatever it is that I am at my core (with little to no success). These "memories", may be made up in my head, may never have happened. They may be genetic memory (there's another word for it that I can't recall how to spell at the moment), or they may truly be mine. They may be memories of spirits I have touched in passing (such a thing has happened to me before) or they may be messages from my spirit guides (my spiritual path is shamanic in core and nature). Can I present them as evidence for being kin or for having past lives in the first place? Not at all. They are intangible and there only for myself. To be honest I have found that the search for "memory" of what I was or am in my soul-self has led to far more issues than resolutions. I find myself running in circles and hung up in places because I think I remember this or that or because I have a shared memory with a friend or because this friend remembers me in some particular instance or form. I have too long allowed others to try to define my core self and attempted to define what is "me" on my own via shadows, whispers, and doubt. In an effort to stop that I have even gone so far as to cut off a potential possibility simply because I associate it with someone who did far more psychological damage to me that I ever should have allowed and who attempted to mold and define me more than I should have allowed. And it's one that maybe I shouldn't have dismissed.

If you do have memories, do not allow them to completely define you, instead take them in with a grain of salt and accept them as information that needs to be weighed and measured like any other feeling or inkling. If you don't have memories, it's ok. Search for them if you want, but the same applies to you as to those who do have them. And if you are comfortable with who and what you are, and in any knowledge you may or may not have, then take it and run with it. We will accept you here either way.

Discussion is good, but not when it gets out of hand. Remember to accept that we are all different with different thoughts and opinions.

And that's my two cents, take it or leave it. Back to catching up on the rest of the new posts!

~Rhannan

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Instead of looking for who or what you were, or even what you are.

I will always advise a person to look for who they are.

Once you can answer the question of who you are, then you are more free to look for other things if you so wish.

It doesn't matter where you have been, what you have done or who you were even as a child in this lifetime, those things do not define you right now in this moment.

Yes they can influence the way you think or do things but they do not define you.

If you do not truly know yourself at this moment in time and be honest with yourself, how can can you move ahead truthfully with the best interests for yourself at heart.

Life is not truly about where you have been, it is only ever about who you are right now and what you do with it in the next few moments.

Zygo :flame:

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I have no memories for sure either. I say for sure because I have had one experience (not necessarily kin specific) that many, I think, would quickly classify as a memory. One of the reasons is because I gained information from it that I didn't have. That is of course paradoxical because if it was a memory, then i actually DID have the information. Those classifying it as a memory might suggest that it was information that I had not gathered in this life.

Personally, I feel that jumps to conclusions. For instance, perhaps it was a memory, just not mine from a life I had lived. Perhaps information floats in energy form in a sort of collective consciousness and we can pick it up like radios. There is no reason why such reception could not feel intense and profound. And there is no reason why two people couldn't pick up different view points of the same event. This might work in a fashion similar to some interpretations of ghost activity, in which the event leaves an energetic resonance that can be perceived.

Perhaps memories can be passed down family lines. A concept called "traducianism" involves the idea that the spirit/soul of a person is made from the procreative act, just like the physical body is. Thus the new soul/spirit would inherit spiritual information from the two parents, and they from their parents and so on and so on. Again these experiences could be intense, and two sides of the same event could be experienced by different people (or even the SAME person!)

Anyway, I see all these ways that the intense "memories" could manifest that make it so reincarnation is not the only possible explanation.

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